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A N D R E W   K n o w s:
R  E  L  I  G  I  O  N
(c) 1996 ANDREW OF AMERICA

The following is a transcript of a heated exchange between Chris Purdom and
ANDREW OF AMERICA on Gays, Religion and Andrew Sullivan vs Pat Buchanan

To: purdom@rabbit.com

>Subject: Andrew Sullivan comment
(Do me the favor of forwarding this and my other original posts back to me,
please.)

CHRIS>I do not wish to offend whatever gay Catholics we may have on this list
>now or in the future.

ANDREW: Well, you've offended me, but I forgive you.  It's what Sullivan
would do. All the response I have gotten from Catholics--unless you profess
to be one--have been 100 percent un-ee-quiv-oh-ka-bully positive.
Unless you count the one who simply said Andrew Sullivan was "cute."

CHRIS>While your comments were directed at Andrew
>Sullivan, and Andrew Sullivan is not currently on the list, I was
>quite serious in the introduction in saying that CRITICISM of others
>religious beliefs would NOT BE TOLERATED. {emp. CHRIS}

ANDREW: Oh yippee.  Another spot on the net for uncritical intolerance.
That's *NOT* what the intro says.  But you'll never have to issue such
a warning to Mr. Sullivan as he would rather fall on his sword than use it.
The criticism was *not* about Mr. Sullivan's beliefs, it was about his
genteel kowtowing to Buchanan's venomous defamations, a useful trick he must
have picked up on the job.

ANDREW: In contrast to Mr. Sullivan's mollycoddling and Neville
Chamberlaining of bullies, St. Catherine of Siena was bold enough to
reprimand Popes and Kings to their faces, denounce Cardinals as Antichrists,
turn back mobs, reconcile feuds and end the Babylonian captivity of the
Church.  She is one of only two women to be named Doctor of the Church.
Having Catholic faith does not make one exempt from criticism, it demands
it as a tenet of fidelity.  

CHRIS>From speaking to members of the Philadelphia chapter of Dignity in the
>last few months, I have been told that about half of the Dignity
>members see themselves as general church reformers.  Your statement
>that Andrew Sullivan is unlike his LesbiGay Catholic brothers and
>sisters is an overly broad generalization.

ANDREW: Sorry, I'll be specific.  He blinks at injustice.  He calls
it "unfortunate, archaic, systemic" but he never calls it *evil.*
I know of no Catholic figure in his position of public exposure
who shrinks from critical appraisal of church, society or government.
Andrew Sullivan makes William F. Buckley look like an ACT-UP radical.

ANDREW: Sullivan was not, I am told, a member of Dignity because it
is not an officially sanctioned organization within the church.  It was 
forbidden for clergy to allow them to meet on consecrated ground.  He has been
lax in criticizing hypocrisy, hate and violence within Catholic groups whether
it be exclusion of one brand of sinners while the rest get to march in a
St. Patrick's Day Parade, or a ban against LesBiGay clergy when he knows they
already hold the highest and most distinguished ministries in the Church.
He is also constantly wringing his hands over hiring and firing practices
as he is afraid of antidiscrimination laws that would tie the hands of big
business.  He is a communist's dream of a laissez faire capitalist.

CHRIS>I am curious at to why you think Mr. Sullivan should stick to
>discussing marriage as a Civil arrangement.  Marriage is, in the minds
>of most people, a religious event which the state has no business.
>controlling.  In any case, religious support for same-sex marriage is
>a minimum requirement for making it a legal reality.

ANDREW: Not so.  Civil marriage is the key component.  The courts say
you gain civil/legal rights through a civil marriage and not through
a religious ceremony.  This goes back to the Mormon polygamy cases of
the 19th Century as well as antimiscegenation laws.  This is why the
priest/rabbi/minister/mullah etc. says "by the authority vested in me
BY THE STATE I pronounce you."  Gay and Lesbian unions are invalid
legally as the minister has no legal rights whatsoever to define
them as "married." Marriage is what the state says it is.  This is
the crux of all the state legislation to preempt a pro-gay marriage
outcome of the Hawaii case.  Also the thrust of the Alabama vs. MCC
Ministers lawsuit.

ANDREW: Many religious groups already perform ceremonies of varying
degrees of blessing commitment, endorsement, and sacramental value.
Conversely, some LesBiGays already enjoy most of the civil rights
of marriage in many parts of the country/world.

ANDREW: Patrick Buchanan is a self-described "conservative,
traditionalist Catholic...raised in a pious home." Furthermore,
Mr. Buchanan's Natural Law worldview and Thomistic philosophical system
are by design impervious to notions of *change* in regards to the eternal
sacrament of marriage.  For him, a papal decree would be necessary to alter
his views.  Sullivan would do better to argue with Cardinal Ratzinger.

ANDREW: While I think it is crucial for every man woman and trans to work at
the grassroots level within their religious tradition (or start their own)
the swiftest surest road is through the civil channels.

>Chris Purdom			phone:610-993-1134  		
>Development Team Leader  	email: purdom@rabbit.com  	
>Tangram Enterprise Solutions 	homepage: http://www.tesi.com/~cpurdom/
>
>We season our garlic with food.

Good then my comments shouldn't raise your blood pressure. (Smile)
ANDREW OF AMERICA
Please forward this and copies of previous messages back to me.

"Heisenbug (n) - a timing flaw which does not occur under
		 diagnostic conditions."
					--Chris
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TX-MOTSS Digest and its Webpage are Principle Shrines of ANDREW OF AMERICA's
Holy Relics and Archives.  BRENT PAYTON, Supreme Pontiff